One really can’t speak about “bridging the gap” between evangelical Christians and gay people without addressing the perceptions and misunderstandings surrounding ex-gay ministries. Now, some would say that we (New Direction) have no business even raising the question, given that we are a para-church organization focused on sexual identity. Some would say that we perpetuate the issues.
It may seem to be splitting hairs, though I would prefer to think of it as simply our attempt to chart our own distinct course forward, but New Direction seeks to move beyond the ex-gay label. The term ex-gay has some baggage to be sure.
Anthony Venn-Brown in this blog post asks 20 questions of ex-gay leaders. In his questions, one gets a sense of some of the complaint / critique against ex-gay leaders / ministries that continues to foster a divide. If you are a Christian with a heart to befriend your gay neighbour you will do well to acquaint yourself with some of this context. It may be behind some of the cynicism that you may encounter. I would submit that there is some learning to be had here – and hope that those who hold a more traditional view of sexual ethics will humble themselves and take the time to listen and digest.
Anthony’s questions do seem to presuppose that an ex-gay leader is male and same-gender attracted and likely now married to a woman. I suppose it is apt then, as New Direction tries to move beyond the ex-gay descriptor and be effective and useful in briding the gap, that as its leader I am not male, not same-gender attracted ….. and not married to a woman 🙂
Given that this is the case, I simply can’t respond to some of Anthony’s penetrating personal questions. However, I thought I’d take a stab at some of the others.
1. Do you know of anyone who was completely gay (not a bisexual) who has become completely heterosexual?
I’m not certain I would have any way of knowing if someone was completely gay and not bisexual. Likewise, I’m not certain I would have any way of knowing if someone had become completely heterosexual. It seems to me that at some level both realities are personal and subjective. While I have come to know sga people who report very fulfilling marriages with their opposite gender spouse (including their sexual relationship), most that I know personally are also honest and authentic about the reality of a sense of vulnerability in attractions to their own gender. At New Direction we try to foster a space where people can be honest without a sense of shame or of not measuring up. We’re comfortable with the reality that people experience diverse sexual attractions and seek to focus on encouraging people to live consistently with their beliefs and values. We recognize that ex-gay ministries have seemed to be deceptive when they put on a pedestal those who claim to have gone from gay to straight. We recognize that it has seemed the amount of healing has been exaggerated or that when asked direct questions about residual sga, responses have been evasive or misleading. In response, New Direction commits to sharing honest and authentic stories. We caution Christians to not project aspects of one person’s testimony onto every gay person they meet. And we choose to focus on an individual’s faith journey over and above their sexual orientation.
8. Even though it may not have been your experience, do you think it is possible to be gay and live in a long term, monogamous relationship?
We understand that gay people have been often been lumped together and mischaracterized. This has contributed to the divide. I do think it is possible for someone to be gay and live in a long term, monogamous relationship. The breakdown of relationships is sad reality that is common to the human condition. There are promiscuous gay people and there are promiscuous straight people. We don’t find it helpful to speak of the gay lifestyle – because for 100 gay people you may well encounter 100 different lifestyles. We encourage people to get to know each individual personally before making assumptions about their beliefs and values or the manner in which they live their life.
16. When Exodus commenced three decades ago everyone believed that you had to change your sexual orientation in order to be a Christian. Considering that there are now 100,000’s of gay Christians who have come out, live moral lives, have a strong faith and believe that God loves them just as they are, hasn’t your “ex-gay” message become redundant and obsolete?
I don’t believe that a same-gender attracted person must change their orientation to be a Christian and I do believe that God’s love is unconditional for all people. At the same time, there continue to be same-gender attracted people who believe that it is not God’s will for them to express their same-gender attraction in a sexual relationship. It is in support of these men and women that a ministry like New Direction seeks to serve. Part of that support is working to create safe places within the Christian community for them to be honest and authentic about their experiences with sga. Part of that support is helping them work through experiences of shame or fear, past hurts, patterns of addictive behaviour, and building a strong network of healthy, intimate friendships.
19. Considering the majority of “ex-gay” ministries reject the growing scientific evidence that same-sex-orientation happens prenatally through both genetic and hormonal influences, how do you respond to those who are born with gender or genital ambiguities which is obviously biological?
I seek to take a humble approach to the science around causation. We really don’t know all the details about the complex factors that may play a role in predisposing someone to experience same-gender attraction. At this point, the science around prenatal factors is compelling, though inconclusive in pinpointing determination.
I am deeply humbled by the complex realities facing intersexed individuals. My response is rooted in relationship where I seek to listen, love and serve the individual where they’re at. If invited, I would seek to gently explore beliefs, values and the implications of faith in experiencing love and intimacy in relationship. In a similar manner, I am humbled by the realities of individuals navigating transgender issues.
My prayer is that as followers of Jesus have the opportunity to engage in relationship with individuals facing these realities, we will embody the gentle, discernment of the Good Shepherd.
-WG
Can a non-leader, ex gay woman answer these questions?
Hey Wendy….I like your spirit.
Please forgive my stereotyping and generalisations.
anonymous – go for it …. use this comment area if you like – I’d be very interested to hear your responses.
Anthony – despite the generalizations, I think they were thought provoking questions. To the average Joe Christian who doesn’t give a lot of thought to this whole area of engagement, I thought it provided a quick primer on some of the issues. These are issues that I hope can be discussed respectfully and with generosity – even when there are areas of disagreement. Best to you.
thanks Wendy….the questions do come from 22 years of living as an ‘ex-gay, married with 2 children, running a yahoo group for ex-ex-gays for 8 years, reading as much as I could on the subject (both sides of the debate and research), working with same sex attracted people from Christian backgrounds for 4 years….so it wasn’t too hard for the questions to fall out on the page.
in comparison, i’m a relative newcomer having served through intentional relationships for 6 years….. and if i’ve learned anything in those years it is the absolute importance of listening and humility. in light of that, i thank you for sharing of yourself and of your experiences. i hope it will compel more listening and greater humility.
Hi Wendy,
I appreciate your boldness in engaging in this conversation; however, I admit I’m disappointed that you chose to avoid answering all of Venn-Brown’s questions. Not all of his other questions were individually focused and it seems could have been adapted or otherwise commented upon. Are there any New Direction participants willing to comment?
I’m very impressed with New Direction’s Distinctives statements. It seems to address some criticisms I have about the ex-gay/gay-change movement. Are you aware of any US ministries that have taken a similar position?
Also, is New Direction still a member of Exodus International? I can’t find any mention of Exodus on your website, but Exodus still lists New Direction as a member ministry. ND’s Dististinctive statement would seem to be undermined if ND supports and associates with organizations, such as Exodus, that engage in politics/public policy and promote gay change programs.
Hi Norm – it would have been interesting to tackle more of the questions …. but in the interest of time and length, i chose the ones i thought were representative.
our relationship with exodus is an interesting one and one that undergoes review and evaluation. from our perspective, our status as a member ministry doesn’t spell out agreement on every point – rather for us it is about providing a point of connection for those searching for support (ie. we receive referrals from them). we understand that the connection can create confusion. our mission, vision, values and distinctives mark who we are, how we seek to engage, and where we are headed.
in my years of building friendships with various exodus leaders i have experienced diverse perspectives on ministry and engagement. some resonate a little more closely with where i’m at, some less so. i’m not sure if anyone has articulated things quite like our distinctives – though after i delivered an address at an exodus leadership conference that articulated many of those thoughts, there were a lot of leaders who expressed support. so…. there are some growing pains and might i even say emergence happening in some places.
thanks for that comment Wendy. It does seem that the US version of ex-gay is different from others around the world. The most notable being their funding and involvement with politics. I can’t speak on behalf of Australias ex-gay ministries but I do know from conversations I’ve had with various leaders and former leaders that they were never happy with the directions.
In the UK Jeremy Marks from Courage moved all the way from ex-gay to gay affirming.
I am under the impression also that there are those amongst the US Exodus camp that have had shifts in their understanding and our now seeing that gay and christian are not mutually exclusive terms. Not everyone will say that yet publicly though.
you mentioned humility a couple of times. Just wanted to assure you my recent post explaining the background of my questions was not meant to be arrogant….just making you aware of my experience and that the questions did not just come out of the blue.
thought I should say that in case there had been a misunderstanding.
you will get a clearer picture of where I’m coming from here.
http://gayambassador2.blogspot.com/
you maybe very aligned to the concept yourself.
Wendy,
You say that you are humbled by the complexities that intersexed individuals faced.
Part of that complexity is the individual’s faith and a Book that says that God made only man or woman.
The first 3 years of my life were spent in medical mutilation. The following 44 have been spent in antagonism from Christians who refuse to believe that such a person would exist; that their God would allow such a “mistake”.
And, really, that is what is at the heart of the disgust of homosexuality: that such queer (I embrace that word.) folks are beyond the pale of humanity. Because I truly believe with all of my understanding that the “homosexuals”who are dealt such a virulent play by the Apostle Paul, *were* in fact heterosexuals who were promiscuous. IOW I do not believe that the Romans 1 folk depicts the typical gay Christian in attitude and demeanor.
But that also leaves the reality of “what to do with those different”. If we insist on celibacy, we don’t have to really think about gays existing. (or any other different folk).
My mother left me to die in a hospital bed when I was 6 because she could not live with the lie of how I was being raised: hermaphroditism — that her “daughter” was as much (if not more so) of a son.
The average fundamentalist Christian feels content to throw the Bible at me and feel that they know the intricacies of sexual development. Many of them will not even acknowledge that there are added chromosomal types than simply XX and XY. Just throw those microscopes away and all will be good again. Not.
Gays and Lesbians oftentimes speak of being different at early childhood. They are not lying or being “rebellious”. Any more than my “correction” makes who I am disappear.
anthony – no worries, my comments about humility were directed at myself and those who engage with this blog generally. i’m always trying to keep my eyes open for opportunities to practice humility – i don’t think it comes very naturally to many of us.
i’ve read about the journey of jeremy marks in the uk … though haven’t had the opportunity to meet him personally. though i’m not at the same place he is, i do understand his journey and respect that he has struggled to honour God and serve gay people well.
even though there are points of theology on which gay Christians and i would disagree …. i don’t think that gay and Christian are mutually exclusive terms.
i think we all see things through a glass dimly and don’t doubt that when we meet Christ face-to-face we’ll be surprised by quite a number of things that we missed the boat on. in the time in-between there is need for much grace, the call to love generously, and to reflect the character of Christ as fully as possible this side of heaven.
with the conversations on this blog, i hope that we will be able to embody that – including with those with whom there are theological disagreements.
thank you alex for sharing. it sounds like there has been much pain in your journey. when i was a child a baby was born at the farm just down the road with ambiguous genitalia …. i remember wondering what all the hushed conversations were about, why the family stopped going to church, why a short time later the couple divorced …. and why i never really heard about that baby growing up…. as a child i didn’t know how to make sense of that – but something in my heart said we weren’t embracing that family as we should.
today i have several people close to me who have kleinfelter’s syndrome …. and i know i sure don’t have answers for some of the challenging questions they face. but i do know that i’m really blessed that they are in my life, i’m blessed by their courage and fortitude, i’m blessed by their hope in the midst of ambiguity …. and yes, i’m humbled.
you’ve shared painful and frustrating encounters with some Christians …. i do hope alex that you’ve also met some grace-filled, loving and humble followers of Jesus…. i hope you’ve engaged with people of faith who were sensitive to the unique and profound realities of your life. there are plenty of narrow-minded, insensitive people out there – who misuse religion and treat the bible as though it were a weapon…. personally i think that grieves the heart of God and i join his lament when i see the aftermath of the resulting wreckage in people’s lives.
grace and peace to you.
Hi Wendy…..i responded to your comment on my blog
“Anthony’s questions do seem to presuppose that an ex-gay leader is male and same-gender attracted and likely now married to a woman. I suppose it is apt then, as New Direction tries to move beyond the ex-gay descriptor and be effective and useful in briding the gap, that as its leader I am not male, not same-gender attracted ….. and not married to a woman :)”
would you consider yourself an ex-gay leader considering the space that your ministry operates in.
anthony said, “would you consider yourself an ex-gay leader considering the space that your ministry operates in.” ….. ah that’s the kicker …. insightful question….
probably not.
ND isn’t, at this time and place, focused on being an ex-gay ministry – we are focused on being a ministry of presence for those who choose to engage with us in exploring faith and sexuality. and being non-sga, i simply consider myself a servant, a spiritual director, a friend …. as i seek to steward an organization that God is using to shape conversations, mind-sets, attitudes, interactions – to enlarge the spacious place where people can be honest and authentic and encounter the life of Christ in the midst of it all.
sounds like a healthy space to be in Wendy.
are you aware how alike our two countries are in many ways.
When we had the world expo……the Canadian exhibition was one of the most popular…….Aussies felt so at home with the sense of humour particularly.
I wonder if this also affects that fact that outside of the US ministries that work with SSA Christians are quite different in approach and outlook.
i’ve always dreamed of visiting australia… when i travelled europe (a hundred years ago :), i ended up travelling with a bunch of aussies and kiwis and we had the best of times.
i do think there is some wonderful resonance …. and i try to keep my ear to the ground concerning some of the amazing things God has been doing in australia.
as for ministries for sga Christians – i agree there is a different flavour beyond the US. personally, i’m really grateful to be ministering in the canadian context – i think the potential to change how we view and engage this area of ministry is particularly exciting for us in canada – and i would think there would be a similar sense of opportunity and potential in australia.
it seems that most of the extremes that exist re evangelical Christianity are US constructs. its an interesting phenomena. Something I guess about the US culture that creates it…..and allows them to exist.
We don’t have the Fred Phelps’, extreme TV evangelists or the empires or snake handlers for that matter……I’m assuming its not something you find in Canada as well.
i’ve often linked it in part to the fact that we don’t have the same kind of celebrity culture that the US has … not that some canadians haven’t tried to create that for themselves ….but somehow our culture just doesn’t sustain it (sadly we look across the border and worship their celebrities – or our best prospects just move out there and everyone assumes they’re american 🙂 …. ultimately it is much healthier for the church to avoid the celebrity leader …. i wish in the same way we could avoid consumer church – but that is another blog and another conversation
Hi Wendy,
I like some of the broad statements you and ND’s website make, but I don’t have a clear picture of what ND actually does.
It seems you and ND strive to differentiate yourselves from other ‘ex-gay/gay-change’ ministries. If you have time and are willing, can you provide some insight what ND does on a day-to-day basis?
– Does ND offer seminar-style motivational/education courses, support groups, AA-style accountability groups, individual counseling, etc. directly to people with SSA?
– What qualifications, training, or credentials are ND’s leaders required to have? What makes ND more qualified or unique than an average lay pastor?
– Are per session, per course, or per hour fees or “suggested donations” solicited? If so, what services do payors expect to receive?
– Does ND pre-screen participants for suitability? Does ND accept minors forced to participate by their parents or adults coerced to participate by their family? Are participants with suspected mental illness, addiction, or other impairment accepted?
– Does ND advocate viewing same-sex attractions as some type of disorder (psychological, developmental, physiological, etc.) or negative condition (i.e. spiritual battle, etc.)?
– Does ND empower or encourage participants to affirm a “gay Christian” or positive gay identity if they so choose?
– How does ND know that participants are better off from their experience with ND and how does ND follow-up regarding its effectiveness?
Our ministries at New Direction can be divided into four categories:
Front-line: pastoral counseling, support groups, spiritual direction, mentoring, friendships
This personal, relational aspect of the ministry is our engagement with individuals and families impacted by issues of sexual identity. People find us through a variety of sources: 3rd party referrals, online search, or exposure to our speaking and equipping ministries. The focus in the majority of our front-line ministry with individuals is clarifying of beliefs and values, strengthening faith, learning skills to manage areas of weakness or struggle and maintain commitments, addressing shame and fear, processing past hurts, accepting one’s self. Each of our staff who offer formal pastoral counseling services holds a Master’s degree. Our counseling session fees are $70 / session and we have a scholarship program for those who cannot afford the full fees. Much of our front-line is more informal mentoring or friendship-based and there are no fees connected with this engagement. Our support groups have been dwindling and it looks like we won’t be running one this year. In the recent past they have been a safe place to “let your hair down” with other same-gender attracted Christians, to share, pray and discuss. We haven’t followed a specific curriculum or program the last few years.
Equipping: seminars, workshops, conferences, speaking engagements
This teaching aspect of the ministry is where we seek to equip and prepare others for redemptive engagement with same-gender attracted people and to think through and speak on sexual identity concerns in a relevant, respectful, relational and redemptive manner. We particularly offer an interactive learning experience called, “Sexual Identity & the Local Church” that provides a safe place to wrestle with the realities of today’s context through case studies, group discussion, role playing etc. Our staff speak at numerous conferences throughout Canada, in churches, youth groups, and other Christian organizations.
Resources: small group curriculum, support group materials, articles, blogs, videos
This informational aspect of the ministry is where we develop practical tools to help educate and equip those in the Christian community on sexual identity issues. We try to steward the degree of influence that God entrusts to us by developing resources that are gospel and grace centered, with a moderate tone and relationship-based ethos. The “Bridging the Gap” project out of which the blog was launched is set to be released for use in the Christian community in March 2009.
Network building: regional safe churches contacts, counselor referral list
This connection aspect of the ministry is where we seek to identify people and places that will provide a safe and redemptive space for a person wrestling with questions of faith and sexual identity within Canada.
For four staff members, we have our fingers in a lot of pies. But a lot of what we do is to try to share the kind of message that you see on our websites and on this blog in the conversations we get to have with glbtq people and to influence the conversations other followers of Jesus will get to have with glbtq people.
Some of Norm’s additional questions:
Does ND pre-screen participants for suitability? Every new contact to the ministry is offered the opportunity to meet with a staff person to share their story and to help us determine what the best fit is. If they are really looking for formal counseling, then they will go through an intake process with the counselor. Whenever we run support groups, we also meet with people prior to their attending.
Does ND accept minors forced to participate by their parents or adults coerced to participate by their family? We will always meet with a family in crisis once. In that first meeting, we make it very clear that we will not see a young person against their will. In those situations, we do offer to continue to meet with the parents – hoping to help them process their fears, anger, confusion etc.
Are participants with suspected mental illness, addiction, or other impairment accepted? Each individual person is considered uniquely. Our staff don’t hesitate to refer to colleagues with more specialized credentials where that is warranted. And we have certainly done that in the case of mental illness. Depending on the nature of the addiction, our counselors may have the necessary experience and expertise to address it with the person – but if not, again we don’t hesitate to refer.
Does ND advocate viewing same-sex attractions as some type of disorder (psychological, developmental, physiological, etc.) or negative condition (i.e. spiritual battle, etc.)? We view same-gender attraction as a reality that some people experience. In some people’s lives it seems to be connected to other experiences that are negative or hurtful. In some people’s lives it contributes to great spiritual struggle. For others, they are same-gender attracted, emotionally healthy, mature, strong in their faith etc. So the actual experience of same-gender attraction isn’t so much what we focus on – we look with people at what impact that is having on their life, in what ways might it be connected to hurtful or negative experiences that need to be addressed, and how is it influencing their ability to live a life that is consistent with the beliefs and values that they own for themselves. Part of that may simply be helping them to deal with all the other people in their life who aren’t handling the reality of their same-gender attraction very well.
Does ND empower or encourage participants to affirm a “gay Christian” or positive gay identity if they so choose? Our primary focus is to encourage a same-gender attracted follower of Jesus to be fully grounded in their identity as the Beloved of God. We don’t view someone’s sexual orientation as necessarily defining of their identity. For some people, they are staggering under such loads of shame because they experience same-gender attraction that we seek to help them dismantle that shame and simply accept the reality of their attractions as they are right now. For those who journey to the place of wanting to embrace a gay identity, we try to give space for that. We don’t actively encourage it or actively discourage it – we let each person own their own journey. If someone embraces a gay identity and is looking for a gay-affirming church community, we would point them to the churches we are aware of that embody a robust Christian faith.
How does ND know that participants are better off from their experience with ND and how does ND follow-up regarding its effectiveness? Because we seek to increasingly embody a relational focus in ministry, our engagement with people is less about programs and structures than it is about simply connecting. We count it a privilege to connect with people where they’re at and want to maintain open, authentic conversations. At the same time, we seek to be non-coercive in someone’s life – so if they move beyond ND and don’t want to continue to engage with us, we honour that. In a previous post I referred to an email conversation I had with a young woman who’s partner had left, who was asking for prayer …. She and I have some areas of disagreement theologically …. But I was so glad that she felt she could email me and ask for prayer …. That enough of a relationship had been established that she felt I would be receptive to her (which, of course, I was). That is the kind of stuff we dream about – being in relationship with a diverse spectrum of people – able to serve, care and love with the kind of love the Jesus embodied.
Okay – this is a long one.
My answers to Anthony who has very valid concerns.
Answers are from an ex lesbian, christian who is not in leadership in any ex gay ministry.
#1 I can speak for myself only. At one time, I would have sworn to you that I had no attraction for men. Then I changed. I cannot say that I will never have sexual feelings towards another woman again because I do not know what the future holds. In addition, I do not deny that I had fun as a lesbian.
#2 Women are different from men and I have two sisters who were brought up in the same environment although they met some growth milestones before certain events occurred. My opinion about myself is that sexuality is both born in and nurtured in. I believe for myself that I might have had lesbian expressions but not to the extent I had – had my brother not sexually abused me and had my mother and father stepped in to address that issue. In addition, my family is very liberal, being gay was not a big deal, and so it was very easy to move in that direction.
#3 Yes. People have a variety of sexual backgrounds.
#4 I do not like any of the “programs” out there and I think they contribute even more to self-sexual hostility, which cannot be good for anyone in my book. Becoming heterosexual should not be the goal of any ministry. There are NO GUARANTEES in any kind of therapy or ministry.
#5 I would not use the word healed. Accountability exists for all people working or having worked on a particular issue. I also have accountability partners for sexuality in other areas – not just homosexuality.
#6 Yes. In my religion, sex outside of the covenant of heterosexual marriage is not allowed. With all the media images out there – there is a lot of temptation and ways to go in another direction.
#7. Speaking for myself – I do not know. Circumstances that would lead to infidelity are complicated – it would not be just a question of sexual dissatisfaction but there would have to be some very wrong things in our relationship. What those would be – I do not know.
#8 Absolutely yes.
#9 I think that long term relationships have many things in common – respect, communication, etc….
The difference between gay and straight relationships is that one is gay and one is straight.
#10. They did act in ignorance by telling people that they were less than others were when they engaged in homosexuality. I support their efforts to apologize. No one is less than anyone else is. Their work harmed many people.
#11. I have not contributed to this. I do not endorse many of the methods used in ex gay ministries. As a person who has had suicide in her family, and as an ex gay, I am very interested in how this is handled. Suicide is an epidemic in this country – America. It is not just a gay issue but when someone suicides because of being gay, it upsets me very much.
#12 I agree. Why all the fanfare about about drugs and dissatisfaction with life? A person can live a wholesome life as a gay man or lesbian. And since many straight people go through the whole promiscuous, drug phase – what is the difference? None.
However, I suppose some people do feel that their guilt about their sexuality drove them to use drugs. I also get tired of those stories being sensationalized by ministry groups.
#13 I am not qualified to give advice on which cat food to buy. However, my shrink comes from an Ivy League school, is licensed, teaches and supervises other counselors. She is Christian and I am certain would support me if my decision was to be with a woman.
#14 In prison – a person does not have a choice or huge selection to choose from – so that makes a difference. If I were in prison, I probably would have a girlfriend. In the free world, a person can choose a wife, husband, or lover of the same sex.
#15 Cannot answer since I am a woman. However, I am not as guy crazy as some of my friends.
#16 Gay Christians have not changed the religion of people who believe that homosexuality is a sin. In my opinion, it is sort of like the Protestants and the Catholics. There has been a split in the church and that is the way it is. The groups will view religion, the bible, God etc… differently. Nevertheless, my view is that a person can be gay and Christian.
#17 I do not agree with Exodus or Love Won Out.
#18 Success from the religious perspective is not changing from gay to straight. Success from the gay perspective will never exist because the two groups of ex gays and gays will continue to define change, success, gay, ex gay differently. No one ever changes so far that he or she will never ever have a homosexual thought again. In other words, we never forget what it was like to be gay. Therefore, we will never be like the man or woman who has never had a homosexual experience. We will always be a little different from other people.
#19. Sexuality, gender and genital ambiguities are natural. A person may deal with them in anyway they choose.
#20 Absolutely, yes.
Alex,
As a christian I am so sorry other people of faith have brought such agaony to your life. There’s a lot in the bible that I don’t understand. Because I don’t understand God does not mean I have to make things up. Again, I’m sorry people mistreated you. If I had a child who was intersexed, I’d let them make the decisions all the way as to what they wanted to do or not do with their own body. And I’d support them all the way.
thanks anonymous for responding so well to the 20 questions. You are so right about the male/female thing.
it is something that is frequently overlooked. Possibly because of male dominated ministry or that christian males have more angst over thier sexuality…..just an observation.
Research does shows that woman’s sexuality is much more fluid than men’s.
I have received many emails from female readers of my autobiography who tell me they fell in love with their best friend and are now living in a committed relationship with that person.
Previously they never identified as lesbian….and still don’t.
that sort of thing never happens in male to male relationships unless the man is gay. Some may say they are bi…..but from my experience….over time most of these guys realise that the term bi was a safe place to be for a few years on thier journey to accepting their gay selves.
can I ask a favor….can you please cut and paste your responses on my blog. I’m sure others would be interested in your perspectives there as well. thanks
http://alifeofunlearning.blogspot.com/2008/08/20-questions-for-ex-gay-ministry.html
Anthony,
Yes, men and women are different. I don’t know why the ex gay ministries overlook this fact and even those who are bona fide counselors have erred in this way.
You know, at different times, both of my sisters asked me about being gay and showed interest in “trying it out” because of their dissatisfaction with male relationships – somehow they thought my way was easier and made more sense. But I told them both that there’s trouble in River City – and it doesn’t matter who’s coming to dinner. They are both into men as far as I know.
As far as friends becoming lovers – I’ve heard that a lot. My shrink told me once (and her specialty is couples therapy – just so you have an idea) that many people who don’t admit it in a private survey or anywhere else have thought about sex with their own gender. I’ll take her word for it – she’s been counseling people for about thirty years – I’m sure she’s heard a lot.
I’ll post and clip. But hey – I’m pretty beat up by gays who continue to call me anti-gay (no matter what I say ) – so if someone gets haughty, please forgive me for not responding.
Oh and on the way out of lesbianism, I considered myself bi-sexual because it was a safe place to be and it didn’t offend others so much.
LOL!!!!
Funny how similar we all are.
Hi Wendy,
Thank you for detailed answer to my questions. I have a couple follow-up questions:
I’m glad that ND’s counselors are required to have degrees. Can you specify what type of degree(s) and what credential(s) ND recognizes? Since ND’s ministry is so specifically focused, it seems clients would expect ND personnel to have specialized training and expertise.
Do ND counselors rely on their own experiences with same-sex attractions in their counseling practices? How do ND counselors avoid projecting their own experiences onto clients? It seems that a counselor that is personally invested in a fundamentalist theological belief and/or psychological theory would struggle to maintain a professional distance let alone sincerely empower or encourage a client to follow an opposing belief/understanding.
Do ND counselors have a professional licenses or certifications? I know pastoral counseling doesn’t necessarily require advanced degrees or professional licenses; however, ex-gay/gay-change ministries often involve a wide-range of theories regarding sexual orientation (i.e. biological, parenting, sexual/physical trauma, gender bonding, emotional dependency, addictive behavior, etc.). Many of these issues are very complicated and require sensitivity. From my own and others’ experience, I know (often untrained) ex-gay “counselors” can cause much harm by diagnosing and treating someone’s supposed ‘root causes’ of their same-sex attractions. What professional standards of conduct are ND counselors required to follow and what governing body are counselors liable to?
My own frustration with the ex-gay/gay-change movement is the duplicitous nature of many ministries. It seems to me that many ministries portray themselves as offering a therapeutic counseling practice while simultaneously maintaining a religious identity that exempts them from professional responsibilities. Most health professions don’t view homosexuality as a disorder and many theories same-sex attractions are unproven/unrecognized theories, so it seems many ex-gay/gay-change counselors operate on the fringe of professional practice. Also, while conservative Christian theology may believe certain same-sex behavior is sinful, it doubtful that the Bible advocates elaborate psychological theories about the cause or treatment of sexual orientation.
Norm said, “Can you specify what type of degree(s) and what credential(s) ND recognizes? Since ND’s ministry is so specifically focused, it seems clients would expect ND personnel to have specialized training and expertise.”
Both Brian and John have Master’s degrees in Counseling from a Christian seminary. John, our staff counselor, has been doing some work towards his AFMT certification. I hold a Master’s degree in Pastoral Ministry – also from a Christian seminary – with additional counseling courses under my belt. For all three of us, our focus is on providing pastoral counseling – not therapy. And in my case, I work with only one or two individuals at a time given the busyness of my other responsibilities and the focus is really more of a spiritual direction / mentoring than even pastoral counseling. We recognize our limitations and do not promote services beyond our expertise.
Norm said, “Do ND counselors rely on their own experiences with same-sex attractions in their counseling practices? How do ND counselors avoid projecting their own experiences onto clients? It seems that a counselor that is personally invested in a fundamentalist theological belief and/or psychological theory would struggle to maintain a professional distance let alone sincerely empower or encourage a client to follow an opposing belief/understanding.”
Any professional with a Master’s degree in counseling has learned to avoid projecting their own experience onto clients. Having said that, for Brian and John, our two staff involved in pastoral counseling that have both had personal experience with same-gender attraction, are able to draw on their experience in building rapport and expressing empathy. It is an unfair assumption to presume that a Christian counselor would be unable to maintain a professional distance because they hold a set of personal beliefs and values. All counselors hold some set of personal beliefs and values – and all inevitably encounter clients who hold differing beliefs and values. Our counselors function under a code of ethics (can be found on our website: http://www.newdirection.ca/content.xjp?id=303) that embody the necessary value of being non-coercive in an individual’s life. Having said that, people seek out our pastoral counseling ministries because they have an affinity with the values of ND. Should their values change, we will explore with them whether they want to continue in a ministry relationship with us or whether we can be of help to them in finding an appropriate referral. In this sense, we always seek to be client-centered.
Norm said, “Do ND counselors have a professional licenses or certifications? I know pastoral counseling doesn’t necessarily require advanced degrees or professional licenses; however, ex-gay/gay-change ministries often involve a wide-range of theories regarding sexual orientation (i.e. biological, parenting, sexual/physical trauma, gender bonding, emotional dependency, addictive behavior, etc.). Many of these issues are very complicated and require sensitivity. From my own and others’ experience, I know (often untrained) ex-gay “counselors” can cause much harm by diagnosing and treating someone’s supposed ‘root causes’ of their same-sex attractions. What professional standards of conduct are ND counselors required to follow and what governing body are counselors liable to?”
ND in our pastoral counseling is discipleship-focused not change-driven. We are not reparative therapists. Therefore, your questions regarding theories of causation don’t really fit our practice of ministry. While we may explore issues of family dynamics, sexual / physical trauma, gender bonding, emotional dependency, addictive behaviour etc. with an individual – such exploration is not undertaken as an attempt to “unlock the genesis of someone’s sga” – rather it is simply part of the process of empowering an individual in their journey towards wholeness in Christ. Regardless of what happens in someone’s experience of sexual attractions, there can be helpful work towards resolution of some of the experiences you’ve described. I would assume that a gay-affirmative therapist would also help an individual process these types of experiences if they identified these as areas of need. I think where “ex-gay counselors” may have gotten off-the-rails in the past was connecting such experiences as determinate and causative of an individual’s orientation. That is not what ND seeks to do.
Norm said, “My own frustration with the ex-gay/gay-change movement is the duplicitous nature of many ministries. It seems to me that many ministries portray themselves as offering a therapeutic counseling practice while simultaneously maintaining a religious identity that exempts them from professional responsibilities. Most health professions don’t view homosexuality as a disorder and many theories same-sex attractions are unproven/unrecognized theories, so it seems many ex-gay/gay-change counselors operate on the fringe of professional practice. Also, while conservative Christian theology may believe certain same-sex behavior is sinful, it doubtful that the Bible advocates elaborate psychological theories about the cause or treatment of sexual orientation.”
I have spent the last number of years listening to the critique and complaint of individuals like yourself – and it has been a valuable process for me. I am not a therapist and our ministry is not a therapeutic practice. If anything, we seek to move more and more towards spiritual direction / mentoring than even the pastoral counseling we currently offer. We cannot undo the hurt and damage that people have experienced in the past. We acknowledge that this has been the case and we lament it – but we cannot undo it. We can only do our very best to be client-centered and focused on the goal of supporting those who seek to experience mastery in their experience of same-gender attraction in alignment with their personal beliefs and values. While these may be beliefs and values that you strongly disagree with, they are beliefs and values that an individual is entitled to hold and order their life accordingly.
I share some of your concerns about the integration of psychology and faith by those who are not sufficiently credentialed to dictate such an integration. This is one of the reasons that at ND we have chosen to intentionally focus on discipleship and spiritual direction – and to move away from a therapeutic environment. Empowering someone to experience mastery and manage their life in a manner consistent with their beliefs and values is not the same as exegeting cause or prescribing treatment. We seek to well understand the difference and minister within the limitations of pastoral support and spiritual empowerment.
I have attempted to be transparent in our practise of ministry. At the end of the day, you and I will disagree on some very fundamental things Norm. I can live with that. I also understand that credibility is not earned by a few comments on a blog …. and that there are many collective reasons to distrust a ministry like ND. I hope, however, that you will weigh what I have said and at least give us the benefit of not lumping us in with other organizations nor lumping us in with your personal past experience. Despite disagreements, I hope that we will earn the respect of those, like yourself, for the manner in which we engage and the manner in which we listen and apply insights like the ones you have offered.
yes the male/female differences in sexuality, sexual response, socialiation, fixed/fluid sexuality etc etc….are constantly overlooked and terms are frequently male centric in the ex-gay movement.
I think you’ll find my space respectful of opinion and difference. Respect is one of my highest values. I can’t expect to have it given to me if I won’t give it to others. I think you’ll find that I manage to keep the blog that way as well.
Hi Wendy,
Thank you for your thorough response. I really appreciate your response and you seem to understand my concerns.
“. . . It is an unfair assumption to presume that a Christian counselor would be unable to maintain a professional distance because they hold a set of personal beliefs and values. . . .”
I agree. All counselors (i.e. ‘pro-gay’, ‘ex-gay’, or whatever) are suseptible of projecting their own strong beliefs and experiences onto their clients. I mainly ask based on my own experience in which an untrained ‘ex-gay’ counselor (who was working toward a counseling degree) very much projected his own faith and experiences onto me. Since graduating, he has apologized to me and claims to have changed his counseling practice.
“. . . Having said that, people seek out our pastoral counseling ministries because they have an affinity with the values of ND. . . .”
I’m a little concerned about this caveat. A counselor should never make assumptions about a client’s belief system and Christians have a wide-range of differing beliefs and doctrines. However, I believe you understand that the stressful, confusing personal struggle of reconciling faith and sexual identities is often a time in which a person’s belief system is also changing.
“. . . Therefore, your questions regarding theories of causation don’t really fit our practice of ministry. While we may explore issues of family dynamics, sexual / physical trauma, gender bonding, emotional dependency, addictive behaviour etc. with an individual – such exploration is not undertaken as an attempt to “unlock the genesis of someone’s sga” – rather it is simply part of the process of empowering an individual in their journey towards wholeness in Christ. . . .”
“Wholeness in Christ” is one of those non-specific trigger phrases that have problems with. Isn’t there an implication that someone who continues to experience same-sex attractions is somehow not “whole in Christ”? Do gay-affirming Christians have wholeness in Christ? (Forgive me if I’m reading too much into your statement.)
“. . . Despite disagreements, I hope that we will earn the respect of those, like yourself, for the manner in which we engage and the manner in which we listen and apply insights like the ones you have offered. . . .”
Obviously, I am a critic of the ‘ex-gay’/gay-change movement due to my own negative, harmful ex-gay experience. However, I believe most ex-gay leaders I met were well-intentioned and I’ve come to view the experience as part of my coming-out process. While I probably do disagree with your religious perspective, I am encouraged, based on your responses here, that New Directions is a different type of ministry than most others involved in the ‘ex-gay’ movement. My main hesistation are some of the criticisms I’ve heard from former New Direction participants (howerver, their involvement may have not been recent).
Norm said, “A counselor should never make assumptions about a client’s belief system and Christians have a wide-range of differing beliefs and doctrines. However, I believe you understand that the stressful, confusing personal struggle of reconciling faith and sexual identities is often a time in which a person’s belief system is also changing.”
I understand what you’re saying …. and in our intakes we give space for people to articulate where they’re at in terms of beliefs and values. Assumptions most certainly can be a dangerous thing. I think one of the distinctions about ND is that we DO recognize that especially in today’s context, people are coming to us in a state of flux, ambiguity and uncertainty – and in our counseling ministry we are not there to make up their mind for them but to create a safe environment for them to explore that. It isn’t that we are neutral in what we believe – but we do put people’s autonomy ahead of our beliefs. And it is messy sometimes – but we try to stay focused on not working feverishly to clean up the mess – but rather to invite Christ into the midst of the mess. The value of being non-coercive in someone’s life is really significant and core to how we seek to engage with people.
Norm said, “Wholeness in Christ” is one of those non-specific trigger phrases that have problems with. Isn’t there an implication that someone who continues to experience same-sex attractions is somehow not “whole in Christ”? Do gay-affirming Christians have wholeness in Christ? (Forgive me if I’m reading too much into your statement.)”
You’re right …. this is a trigger area – not only for you, but I’ve had lots of deep and interesting conversations with gay friends about how to use language that won’t link in with past experiences and perceptions. I think anyone who needs to process and deal with issues of family dynamics, sexual / physical trauma, addictive patterns etc. has the opportunity to experience greater wholeness in Christ as they address these areas …. gay or straight or whatever. What we’ve tried to do is not collapse these experiences into the experience of same-gender attraction. The point is anyone who has been hurt within their family system can move towards greater wholeness in Christ as they process those hurts, deal with forgiveness etc. etc.
I know some same-gender attracted people who are at a healthy, mature place in their life – they’ve processed all their “stuff” so-to-speak and embody a beautiful serenity (that I’m sometimes jealous of to be honest 🙂 …. they continue to experience sga – but I think they’ve experienced a significant degree of wholeness in Christ (I don’t think we ever quite “arrive” in that regard this side of heaven). I also think there are gay Christians who live healthy and mature lives, who experience a robust faith and have a very solid sense of their identity in Christ.
I guess a simple way to say it is this, I don’t think every sga person of faith needs intensive counseling. On the other hand, I think every person of faith (sga or not) does need to take steps in their journey to heal up and grow up – I think all of us need to journey towards greater wholeness in Christ – a journey that continues every day of our life this side of heaven.
Norm said, “Obviously, I am a critic of the ‘ex-gay’/gay-change movement due to my own negative, harmful ex-gay experience. However, I believe most ex-gay leaders I met were well-intentioned and I’ve come to view the experience as part of my coming-out process. While I probably do disagree with your religious perspective, I am encouraged, based on your responses here, that New Directions is a different type of ministry than most others involved in the ‘ex-gay’ movement. My main hesistation are some of the criticisms I’ve heard from former New Direction participants (howerver, their involvement may have not been recent).”
Thank you for that Norm. It isn’t easy to forge a new path – and trust me we’re taking the hits for it.
I do grieve and lament over the many hurtful experiences that people have endured through ex-gay ministries. And I know that there have been people who experienced ND as hurtful. I would like to think that most of those are from the past – that in the last few years we have grown in humility, in honouring autonomy more and being more non-coercive …. but as you would well know, the journey of integrating one’s experience of sexuality with one’s faith is a tumultuous time. Even with great sensitivity, humility and unconditional love and acceptance, I’m not sure we could ever guarantee that no one would get hurt. Unfortunately, I think that in this period of history it is just a painful journey to travel – regardless of where you eventually land. We want to do our best to really provide a safe place in the midst of that tumultuousness …. but we face pressures from all sides too. Parents can pressure us – to fix their child. The church can pressure us – to make it ‘go away’. And we do our best to stand our ground in this moderate place that really, really puts the lives of sga people first and puts their relationship with Jesus Christ first (way ahead of their sexuality)…. We sure don’t do this perfectly, but I can say with complete sincerity that it is the heart of our staff – and why we persevere in serving in this challenging milieu.
Norm!,
I don’t believe the bible talks about change either? It talks about turning away from a behavior – but not about change in the way that some modern day ministries interpret.
I also get the fur on my back up when some of these ex gay programs have limited psychological counseling available and fly under the radar of legal liability. I called Love In Action (America) once and interviewed the intake person – some guy. Anyhow, get this, they said they would search my car, put me in a room with someone who may or may not have a sexual/controlled substance criminal background or current problem with such, and that there was one femal counselor available and she had all of three years of experience (and I would not get a choice in the counselor)
I am a forty-something yo woman. I am ex gay for lack of a better word and have been so for many years. I have my licensure in my professional field which can be revoked – and I don’t have a choice about roommates? And I get stuck with a younger woman, counselor with far less experience than I have on the issue, and someone I don’t know is going to search my car?
I don’t think so. Mind you, I never had any intention of going to that place but I wanted to see first hand what that first step in the process looked like – and were these horror stories really true.
I told the guy that he must have lost his mind or good senses if he thought that taking away an individuals choice was biblical. It was stupid. Just downright stupid and ignorant on their part. I told him of my background, degrees, age, licensure etc… and I thought that the limited experience and choices he had to offer were insufficient for me and for anyone. That the limitations of LIA could obviously cause many, many people harm.
Of course, they never listen, nor change, nor have desire to.
And the application was reidiculous to say the least. Lacking in depth, lacking in confidentiality, lacking in every aspect.
I gave it to my shrink and she was stunned.
People really need to be treated with respect regardless of their goals for themselves. I am so excited about New Directions that I can even tell you. This is a plus in so many areas.
Hi Anonymous,
Yes, Love In Action seems to represent the worse in ex-gay ministries. Their boot camp and forced treatment of Zach Stark was unbelievable.
LOL! What in the world would they search your car for: liberal theology books, non-Christian media, stereotypical lesbian paraphernalia (music instruments, clothing, etc.)? 🙂 LIA’s live-in treatment programs is so bizarre. Why would someone need a 24/7 pseudo-counseling program to ‘overcome’ their attractions? At best, such programs would create a temporary, artificial environment, but ultimately all participants must face regular day-to-day life with their attractions.
LIA seems to view homosexuality as some type of addiction in need of residential treatment. It perpetuates the notion that homosexuality is such an extraordinary, abnormal condition that gay and lesbian converts need to be locked-up in re-education camps. And yet, I have heard of no other conservative Christian ministries offering residential treatment for other sins. Where are the conservative Christian premarital sex, divorce, porn, unhealthy eating, wasteful spending, etc. residential re-education boot camps? 🙂
Hello. My name is Edgar and I’m an editor at OpposingViews.com, the debate website. Since we both cover homosexuality, I thought I’d drop you a note. I would’ve e-mailed you but I couldn’t find an address.
See, we’re currently having a discussion about whether or not homosexuality is a sin. You can see it here:
http://www.opposingviews.com/questions/is-homosexuality-a-sin
Although vetted experts are the ones doing the debating, anyone can contribute by choosing a side and posting comments about the experts’ arguments.
Check it out and, if you have the time, send me your thoughts via e-mail.
Thanks!
Norm!,
Right – like I’d try to sneak my cat, guitar, and a comfortable pair of shoes into the place!! And you should see the secrets in my car: handi hand wipes, pair of extra shoes – just in case, extra car coat, car blanket, and oh yeah – snacks! And I stash extra money in a hiding place. Wow (eyes rolling) Why oh why would I want to attend a place that would accept people who have a questionable use of drugs? Doesn’t that person need drug counseling first??????????
He told me that was for my protection in case I or anyone had sexual paraphenilia, pornography, unacceptable music – (like what ? folk music?) etc… and to avoid bringing that on to the premises. Okay – again – men and women are different. One more time, men and women are different. And drug addiction is a whole discipline of counseling in and of itself. And sexual crimes such as rape, child molestation are different than homosexuality. I know the bible says a sin is a sin is a sin (did you get the Gertrude Stein Inuendo?) but the law of the land says that if you are in relationship with a criminal then your actions are in question, too. C’mon?!!! These people really are ignorant about their so called “protection” of their clients.
I found the whole intake process as it was described to be humiliating, disrespectful, and just very cruel to the senses of a person who is already (for the most part) very confused and unsure of themselves. And their reasoning and process IMO was unbiblical.
Ah well, yes, it was the Zack story that got to me. I think his parents really thought they were doing the right thing – but they also were being manipulated. We need a better understanding sexuality before we start canning young kids and parents into a process that can hurt them.
Hey, did you see that show on American TV about the two transexuals who transitioned back to their male bodies – sort of?
One of them – had a very abrupt – medical procedure to remove his breasts. This was pushed rapidly along by his church people. Did it occurr to any of those church people that maybe? some counseling with someone (a pastor even?) about what the process out of his female identity was going to be like? I found their treatment and rapid push on this poor man to be unethical and again – unbiblical – in that it did not respect the individual and instead pushed a promotion of someone else’s ideas onto the man.
Very disturbing.
Hey, if you are ever over at my house, you just be who you are. I’ll let God handle the rest for both of us.
You write, “. . . there continue to be same-gender attracted people who believe that it is not God’s will for them to express their same-gender attraction in a sexual relationship.” Do you believe that it is not God’s will for “same-gender attracted people” to express their same-gender attraction in a sexual relationship”? Or do you think it is God’s will that some do this?
I think as human beings God gives us all the capacity to give and receive love….one of the most profound experiences in life. If this is a God given gift for all human beings then to deny it is to deny a gift of God.
The capacity to love and share that intimately has been abused by both gay and straight people. that doesn’t diminish the beauty of the gift….it just means that some have taken something precious and ……well you know the rest.
http://gayambassador.blogspot.com/2008/06/introduction-for-heterosexual-andor.html